ZORTRAX M200: 25 microns promised... WHEN?

[batgremlin]

Hi guys,
I’m new at 3D printing;
I recently purchased a Zortrax M200. I am an animated movies director, and I was planning to use it, among other uses, to print miniature accessories for animated puppet films. The 25 microns option made me choose M200; the best resolution for that price. We are looking for sharper results than the only « naked eye » use.
However, despite an instructions manual stating « 25 microns in advanced mode », there is no option under 90 microns in the Z-suite software.
Believe it or not, the seller (in Trideis shop in Brussels, Belgium) told me the 25 microns option was available already when I bought it.
Have I been mislead?
I need a higher than 90 microns resolution printer.
Should I wait?
Should I return the Zortrax and get an Ultimaker 2 (20 microns able)?
What would you do?
I have asked the same question to the official Zortrax customer support… No reply after 5 days. And the shop sellers basically just tell me I’m « too picky »!
Any feedback is welcome - I’m getting nervous about this.
Thanks!
Sacha

[MB3D]

I think you should go for the Form 1+. It’s more expensive, but SLA (laser) printers are capable of printing in your requested resolution in most times. The thing with FDM printers (M200 and Ultimaker) is, that the Z axis could theoretically move as precise as 0,02mm and such, but the actual printing is incredibly difficult, especially since the nozzle size (0,4mm) is limiting your level of detail in X and Y directions. FDM printers archive best results on resolutions like 0,1-0,2mm and at prints that are at least a few millimeters in size. When printing with 0,025mm layer height then you will run in all sorts of problems, I’ll just list a few: -Bed leveling… do you really expect a build mostly out of plastic to be precise within 0,002mm or so (tolerances for layer movement). Also the bed is supported by Springs and M6 screws. M6 screws lift 1mm per turn so to adjust the bed tilt you would be able to turn the screw by less then 1 degree, given, that the thread is that precise (it isnt!). -Extrusion… When printing in tiny layers there is less material extruded relative to the printing time. Therefore the heat will build up on the filament and you’ll run in even more trouble, if the filament gets soft at 5cm above the nozzle. -Tolerances… Aside from the nozzle size most printers have too high tolerances, due to the way they’re build. There’s allways a little space on the bearings and bushings, otherwise the motion system would most likely crank up. Even today’s CNC Mills (price tag 10000-100000€) can’t allways move as precise as 0,01mm as also such expensive and near perfect machines need to have a bit of clearance on the moving components to allow for lubrication and to avoid forced misalignment. The form 1+ cures a resin with a laser, that’s much more precise and isn’t limited by the nozzle size or so. Cheers, Marius Breuer

[Erdrol]

Hi,

I have both printer UM2Ext and ZM200. I can tell you that is no doubt about M200 is better for printing small parts.

I was unable to print a 5mm usable obj with the um2. Same obj on M200 was almost perfect.

Rgs

[p5yck]

get an Ultimaker 2 !!!

[ShareMind]

Future availability of advanced resolution is still on the way for Zortrax, while other promises (like the Wifi support) have been canceled. So I think you can wait. On the other side, any printer with a decent mechanical resolution can teorically print even at 5 microns. The point is: it is really useful? The quality is really better? You should test an Ultimaker 2 at 25 microns and compare the print with the Zortrax at 90 microns. Probably you will discover that the Zortrax still prints well, while the time is one fourth. To print at 25 microns you need 40 layers for each millimeter height.

[Rada3Dnl]

I never see a fdm/fff printer printing in a higher resolution than Zortrax with a better result. I don’t think Zortrax will bring this update. 25 micron will not be better than 90 micron because of the material properties. All the Ultimaker prints i saw at 25micron are not as good as a 90 micron print on a Zortrax.

Even my Nobel (@25micron) can’t always compete with the Zortrax.

[Alex5167]

The 90 microns of Zortrax is better than the 20’s from UM…

[waytogomike]

Based on the info you gave, it likes like you are the same person from on the forums. (that being your profession and the re-seller being the same in both instances) We gave you the answer on the forums, that being, 25 and 50 microns was dropped by Zortrax as a feature. Please refrain from spamming other sites with the same question. It gets old real quick.

[batgremlin]

I’m not spamming; yes, I asked my question on several sites at the same time, and I guess I was right to do so, because I got different types of answers on each site. So thanks everyone! I’m going to visit an Ultimaker seller tomorrow and make my final decision after examining some samples.

[batgremlin]

Well, what about this? I just had the opportunity to make two samples (head is 29mm high) : M200 90µ (white) VS UM2 40µ (green).

The layer lines are very noticeable on M200, and almost not at all on UM2. The result I need is clearly the green one… so unless M200 gets a 50µ update, I’m afraid my choice will go UM2… 

[Erdrol]

I don’t have this bad result with my M200.

Here you’ve marvin on right is UM2 (PLA because printing in abs withUM is a mess), left M200(Z-ABS).

I have same 3D print like you, and I don’t have same bad quality from my Zortrax.

[Rada3Dnl]

This doesn’t look like the quality that i know of Zortrax, this looks like much thicker layers. What was the name of this file? I want to try it.

What material did you use in the Ultimaker?

-I got the file and i will start a print at 90micron, 29mm high.

[ShareMind]

The whole thread, and its repetition on many forums and socials (including mine, FB Zortrax Fan Club), sounds like a subtle attempt to discredit the quality of M200’s and promote UM’s.
Any Zortrax user knows well that the printing quality is NOT the one shown on the picture that have been published. Beside of this, in macro photography the focal field is very short, so shooting a picture with two subjects at a different distance when the focus is on the first one (white) means that the second one (green) is out of focus. Nevertheless, the green print appears to have many small artifacts.

In conclusion: if you are sure that it is better to buy an UM, just buy it. It is not so urgent to tell everybody that you found the right printer for your needs. But it seems that your purposes are different…

[batgremlin]

Well; anyway, the quality of my Zortrax is like this at 90µ. Keep in mind this is a very small detail.

Name of the file: ZombieHunterHead_v4_90k.stl

For those who find it strange that this was my first post: of course! I am new at 3D printing and have the M200 for 12 days only!

Here is a pic with my machine + the 2 prints; in any case I’m still suspected to be dishonest.

I got the UM2 print from a local reseller (http://www.ideato3d.be/en/) and it’s made of PLA, 40µ. Indeed, some artifacts there, but no lines, and that’s what I need. Higher resolution; and that’s why I was hoping 50µ was happening.

Anyway: I feel I won’t have any more help here and I don’t know why but my concern seems to attract aggressiveness. I’ll just make my own mind up.

[Rada3Dnl]

Maybe there is something wrong with your software or machine because I never saw this quality at 90 micron. You can also print stuff like this with HIPS, this will give you a even higher surface quality but less shiny.

When i have room on my Zortrax i will print the same file to see if the lines are the same. I can also print one on a Ultimaker but that will be later today and i can’t use the exact same material.

See here a small print, thats why people doubt your intentions:

https://3dhubs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/talk/attachments/P529131405.jpg

[Rada3Dnl]

If you look at other Zortrax treats you see much smaller prints with much better quality.

When my 29mm Zombie Hunter head is finished i will post it here.

Edit: I printed the same file at 90micron, 29mm high, high speed, minimum infill, white Z-ABS, no support. I zoomed it extra so you can see the difference with the other picture.

[Rada3Dnl]

I will try to make a better picture.

[waytogomike]

Color is also a factor when comparing prints. I work in reselling printers, and I am active on the Zortrax forums as well as having an M200 at home. I know quite a bit about this printer in particular because of my job. I know how re-sellers can make something appear as they want it. White models tend to not hide the imperfections of printing where as Blue, Green, Red, Black, and Orange do a great job of hiding problems.

Most re-sellers will give you a warped perspective on a machine claiming it can do everything the specs sheet says. As an honest reseller and technician I always give my personal opinion and actual performance on a printer and not what makes sales. I have told people before that their needs may not be met by a printer we carry and I can point them to a good alternative to look at should they ask.

I have always maintained the idea of ignoring anyone who outright says “BUY X PRINTER” (as someone chose to do in this tread) no matter the side when it is X vs Y. The UM2 is a great machine from what I have heard, but it is an opensource printer and with that comes a great many challenges that closed source printer users do not have to deal with, which can be a double-edged sword.

[PeterMake]

First of all I own both the Ultimaker 2 and the Zortrax M200.

Second of all buying a 3D printer is like buying a car, they will all go from point a to point b but how to you want to get there, constant fixing and maintenance along the way? Do you care about how fast you get there? Are you a control freak who would rather work on the engine of his car than actually driving it somewhere? I know people like this. They do not care about printed objects but they care about building and tweaking their printers to have bragging rights about how good there printer prints, when it prints! And that is fine, we need machine builders for without them we would not have these great printers.

But I am a printer not a machine builder.

This is why I would advise people who just want to print to get either a Ultimaker 2 or a Zortrax M200.

With that being said I want to say that I really like my Ultimaker 2 but I love my Zortrax M200.

It just prints with way less hassle and out shines the Utimaker 2 by miles.

But than again it is mostly for ABS and the Ultimaker can do any materials within the extruder limitations, heat, etc.

The only time I now use the Ultimaker 2 is to print PLA and specialty materials but if I could avoid it I will always go to my Zortrax first because it prints that much better than the Ultimaker 2, again without the fuss.

I know if I tweak and tweak and tweak and tweak my Ultimaker 2 in Cura, Simply 3D or whatever I could perhaps achieve the results that I get from my Zortrax but I am a maker and if I could get great results without spending hours and hours of perfecting my tweaks to get good results then I will.

Is the Zortrax M200 the printer to end all 3D printers, of course not, newer and better will come along, however as it stands right now the Zortrax M200 is in my opinion hands down the best printer for printing with out the fuss, it just works and works every time.

I have printed dozens of prints on my Zortrax and yet I had never even had to level my build table.

Also about the 0.025 resolution - you don’t need it. If you want that kind of level of resolution then get a Form 2.

Printing at 0.025 micros on any normal size object would take way too long and the results do not have that much discernible differences.

The 0.100 on the Ultimaker 2 and the 0.090 on the Zortrax M200 are good enough.

I have tried going to 0.040 on the Ultimaker 2 many times and I swear it is not worth the extra time it take to print.

Thanks for reading my post,

Peter

[batgremlin]

Hi Peter,

Thanks so much for your feedback.

Well - to my eyes, the 90 microns of the Zortrax were way too rough - the lines were way too noticeable for what I need. As the 50/25 microns option looks like it will never come, in the meantime I sent it back and will be refunded.

I understand an Ultimaker 2 is more hassle - though a sample at 40 microns convinced me much more than the M200 90 microns. The details were just way more precise and the lines were almost invisible.

But I understood what I’m looking for is more like the capabilities of a resin printer, and I may just wait for resin printers to become cheaper - somewhere next year.

Anyway - thanks again for your appraise!!!

Best

Sacha